MichiganCardinal Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 19 minutes ago, Jason_R said: I think it means they were trying to hold a fire sale then realized buyers expected the price to be low. But Sutton makes too much money for a guy ESPN analytics has as the #62 receiver in the NFL (tied with TJ Hockenson, incidentally). https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nfl-receiver-rankings/ Has Sutton ever had a competent QB throwing to him? His best season was in 2019, with 72 receptions for 1112 yards, and that was with a combination of Joe Flacco, Drew Lock, and Brandon Allen throwing to him… I think he could be a pretty good X in a better situation. That said, he would have been worth a throwaway pick but nothing substantial, and it sounds like they wanted something substantial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 8 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said: Has Sutton ever had a competent QB throwing to him? His best season was in 2019, with 72 receptions for 1112 yards, and that was with a combination of Joe Flacco, Drew Lock, and Brandon Allen throwing to him… I think he could be a pretty good X in a better situation. That said, he would have been worth a throwaway pick but nothing substantial, and it sounds like they wanted something substantial. The fact that they would pay him $15 million a year without a competent QB throwing to him — and then look to get rid of him when they get a pro bowl QB — says a lot about the shape the Broncos are in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 (edited) I understand that there is a concern with Chark leaving although isn't a good assumption that Williams takes his spot? Lets not forget that the Lions still had one of the best offenses when Chark wasn't playing. They definitely were better when he was healthy because he stretched the field. That is what you have to assume Williams will do. I understand that you want insurance because he hasn't shown anything yet but I don't think paying Chark or taking a WR at 6 is worth for insurance. Now 18 or later, I am good with. Also, there is also a possibility for a trade mid season or trade deadline if we need someone. I really like Johnson from TCU if there is a trade down or if he slips to 18, although 6 is too much for a team that hopefully got their guy in last years draft. My order of what we should do at 6 1. Anderson 2. Trade down 3. Carter (obviously with Holme's trust) 4. Wilson 5. Levis/Richardson 6. Murphy 7. Gonzalez/Witherspoon (whoever the Lions think is the best corner) Sorry, my first post and maybe this should be in the draft thread but there was talk with trading for a WR. Edited March 27, 2023 by Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 18 hours ago, buddha said: only issue would be whether you want to invest that much of your cap in simmons. i cant imagine a deal would get done until tennessee sees who is available at 6. you figure the lions freed up all that cap space for something... Why would that be an issue? What else are you using the cap for if not an elite 25 year old DT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Jimbo said: I understand that there is a concern with Chark leaving although isn't a good assumption that Williams takes his spot? No, they play different positions, Williams will take Reynolds spot as the z receiver. Who will be the x? Cephus? Reynolds? Not ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 20 minutes ago, NYLion said: Why would that be an issue? What else are you using the cap for if not an elite 25 year old DT? to pay an elite wide receiver like dhopkins and your elite tackle instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotownWebGuy Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Jimbo said: Sorry, my first post and maybe this should be in the draft thread but there was talk with trading for a WR. Welcome Jimbo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 5 minutes ago, buddha said: to pay an elite wide receiver like dhopkins and your elite tackle instead? Can the Lions even fit Hopkins contract in and you'd prefer a 31 year old Hopkins over a 25 year old Simmons? Yeah the acquisition cost for Hopkins would be cheaper but I see Simmons having more impact and can be a part of a long term plan. Is Sewell the elite tackle you're referencing? His new contract won't kick in for another 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Longgone said: No, they play different positions, Williams will take Reynolds spot as the z receiver. Who will be the x? Cephus? Reynolds? Not ideal. I think there is a point where too fine a point can be put on it. If you have guys who can run fast, cut, and catch the ball, matching their exact physique to an exact position to line-up is not a show-stopper. One of the reasons you pay an O-coordinator is to figure how to use high talent level players that may not check conventional boxes exactly. Edited March 27, 2023 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 36 minutes ago, NYLion said: Can the Lions even fit Hopkins contract in and you'd prefer a 31 year old Hopkins over a 25 year old Simmons? Yeah the acquisition cost for Hopkins would be cheaper but I see Simmons having more impact and can be a part of a long term plan. Is Sewell the elite tackle you're referencing? His new contract won't kick in for another 2 years. im not saying i'd prefer it, but it is another option that would likely cost less draft capital. we dont even know if simmons is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 27, 2023 Author Share Posted March 27, 2023 So if Lamar gets traded to the Colts, I would assume the Ravens get the #4 overall pick. I would also assume the Anthony Richardson would be there and would be Baltimore's pick. Trading one QB who had accuracy and throwing concerns coming into the league for another is bit ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 (edited) Thank you for the welcome. I am not saying that Chark and Williams are one for one (as for what exact WR spot or body type) although I do think Williams has the ability to stretch the field. Like Gehringer said, its up to the coaching staff to come up with plays. My whole point is that I think we have put a good amount of resources into the WR spot (either with draft capital or salary) and I don't think using the 6 draft spot on a WR or spending a ton of the cap is the best move. I don't think the WR is one of those positions that you keep on putting the most capital into. Maybe I just have PTSD from the Lions past. Now I also understand that if you trade down or the 18 pick and you have a WR that is 5-10 spots ahead of your current pick and its a value pick based on BPA then that is an OK pick. I just don't think there is a Chase or Calvin in this draft that makes sense at 6. Or trading a top pick for a known WR that has a high salary or is going to cost a lot in the future. TCU WR would be nice but later in the draft. Edited March 27, 2023 by Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 It's a passing league and the Lions run a lot of 3 receiver sets. I think Millen had the right approach and may have even been ahead of his time. He just drafted bad receivers outside of Calvin Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jimbo said: I understand that there is a concern with Chark leaving although isn't a good assumption that Williams takes his spot? Lets not forget that the Lions still had one of the best offenses when Chark wasn't playing. They definitely were better when he was healthy because he stretched the field. That is what you have to assume Williams will do. I understand that you want insurance because he hasn't shown anything yet but I don't think paying Chark or taking a WR at 6 is worth for insurance. Now 18 or later, I am good with. Also, there is also a possibility for a trade mid season or trade deadline if we need someone. I really like Johnson from TCU if there is a trade down or if he slips to 18, although 6 is too much for a team that hopefully got their guy in last years draft. My order of what we should do at 6 1. Anderson 2. Trade down 3. Carter (obviously with Holme's trust) 4. Wilson 5. Levis/Richardson 6. Murphy 7. Gonzalez/Witherspoon (whoever the Lions think is the best corner) Sorry, my first post and maybe this should be in the draft thread but there was talk with trading for a WR. Welcome. Good to have you. Jaymo will eventually take Chark’s place as the second receiving option but they could still use a big guy who can work the sideline and open up space for ASB and Jaymo. As a payroll matter it seems Holmes is planning to commit money to ASB and probably to Jaymo. So it seems they will look for an X in the draft. I doubt it will be in the first round though. And probably not in the second. Edited March 27, 2023 by Jason_R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: I think there is a point where too fine a point can be put on it. If you have guys who can run fast, cut, and catch the ball, matching their exact physique to an exact position to line-up is not a show-stopper. One of the reasons you pay an O-coordinator is to figure how to use high talent level players that may not check conventional boxes exactly. There's not too fine a point to be put on the fact that you need two wide-outs as well as a slot receiver, and the loss of Chark leaves a prime opportunity for upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Jason_R said: .... As a payroll matter it seems Holmes is planning to commit money to ASB and probably to Jaymo. So it seems they will look for an X in the draft. I doubt it will be in the first round though. And probably not in the second. This is where I'm at. I think they can find a good x-receiver in the 3rd, or possibly even in the 5th or 6th... I'm not interested in other wr options aside from a mid-to-late rounder... certainly not in the trade offer wr's as I think their salaries are exorbitant and stupid (from a team's cap perspective). If I use cap on absorbing a guy in trade, I am ONLY interested in Simmons... from what I've seen as potentially available to this point. That's it. If not Simmons, than just hold onto the space for now. I don't believe in making stupid moves just to say we used all our cap space possible, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 I want Johnston but if the Lions feel they can get a similar player later then who am I to question them? Can't remember his name off the top of my head but that WR from WVU that blew up the combine is somebody that fits the mold that comes to mind. Not sure where he is projected to go now but he's a guy to keep an eye on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: It's a passing league and the Lions run a lot of 3 receiver sets. I think Millen had the right approach and may have even been ahead of his time. He just drafted bad receivers outside of Calvin Johnson. he got the qb wrong, that was a big problem too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 15 minutes ago, buddha said: he got the qb wrong, that was a big problem too. They definitely got the QB wrong but Millen also thought like a fan. There are a bunch of insiders that said he wanted Ware over Williams but was only thinking how dominant our team would be with those 3 WRs. I definitely don't think you should decide now decisions based on past failures although you shouldn't have to go 3 WR's within the top 10 3 years in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 This probably belongs in the draft thread... but since we're comparing trade-for potential wr's with draftable wr's... here's one list of ranked wr's (nfl draft buzz) in descending order: # PLAYER POS WEIGHT HEIGHT 40YD 1 Quentin Johnston WR 208lbs 6' 3" 4.40 2 Jaxon Smith-Njigba WR 196lbs 6' 1" 4.48 3 Jordan Addison WR 173lbs 5' 11" 4.49 4 Jalin Hyatt WR 176lbs 6' 0" 4.40 5 Zay Flowers WR 182lbs 5' 9" 4.42 6 Josh Downs WR 171lbs 5' 9" 4.48 7 Nathaniel Dell WR 165lbs 5' 8" 4.49 8 Rashee Rice WR 204lbs 6' 1" 4.51 9 Cedric Tillman WR 213lbs 6' 3" 4.54 10 Marvin Mims Jr. WR 183lbs 5' 11" 4.38 11 A.T. Perry WR 198lbs 6' 4" 4.47 12 Xavier Hutchinson WR 203lbs 6' 2" 4.53 13 Tyler Scott WR 177lbs 5' 10" 4.44 14 Kayshon Boutte WR 195lbs 5' 11" 4.50 15 Andrei Iosivas WR 205lbs 6' 3" 4.43 16 Michael Wilson WR 213lbs 6' 2" 4.58 17 Rakim Jarrett WR 192lbs 6' 0" 4.44 18 Jayden Reed WR 187lbs 5' 11" 4.45 19 Jonathan Mingo WR 220lbs 6' 2" 4.46 20 Parker Washington WR 204lbs 5' 10" 4.49 21 Dontayvion Wicks WR 206lbs 6' 1" 4.62 22 Trey Palmer WR 192lbs 6' 0" 4.33 23 Jalen Moreno-Cropp WR 172lbs 5' 11" 4.40 24 Dontay Demus Jr. WR 212lbs 6' 3" 4.57 25 Charlie Jones WR 175lbs 5' 11" 4.43 26 Ronnie Bell WR 191lbs 6' 0" 4.54 27 Elijah Higgins WR 235lbs 6' 3" 4.54 28 Bryce Ford-Wheaton WR 221lbs 6' 4" 4.38 29 Puka Nacua WR 201lbs 6' 2" 4.45 30 Keytaon Thompson WR 213lbs 6' 5" 4.70 31 Jadon Haselwood WR 215lbs 6' 2" 4.66 32 Jake Bobo WR 206lbs 6' 4" 4.68 33 Jalen Wayne WR 210lbs 6' 2" 4.51 34 Mitchell Tinsley WR 199lbs 6' 0" 4.60 35 Demario Douglas WR 179lbs 5' 8" 4.44 36 Derius Davis WR 165lbs 5' 8" 4.36 Potential X-receivers (these are just guesses on rounds): 1st round: Quentin Johnston, Smith-Njigba? 2nd/3rd round: Cedric Tillman, Rashee Rice, AT Perry, Xavier Hutchinson 4th/5th round: Andrei Iosivas, Jonathon Mingo, Trey Palmer 5th/6th/7th: Bryce Ford-Wheaton, Puka Nacua, Jalen Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRamage Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 23 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: Another scenario is sending the 6th pick to Tennessee for Simmons and a 2024 1st. Tennessee can then send 6 and 11 to Arizona. If Tennessee is rebuilding, that 2024 pick can be a high pick. It's more risky than the other trade but I can see all teams being happy with that trade. I'd be VERY happy with that trade myself. We get a solid DT, we still have a 1st coming up at 18, and we pick up a second first for next year? Sign me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 27, 2023 Author Share Posted March 27, 2023 This could be one of the reasons they cleared cap space for . . . Campbell is 35 and likely only has a year or so left to play. Campbell was still fairly productive last year recording 5.5 sacks and 36 tackles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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