sabretooth Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 7 minutes ago, kdog said: You are always paying the premium for the front end of the contracts. I think what Henning meant to say is "losing is awesome, let's keep going"...and "besides, losing and profits are not mutually exclusive" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 12 minutes ago, oblong said: Maybe they simply don’t want to play here? I thought the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 4 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: god the rangers line up still suxx bad They need another $200+ million shortstop to plug in at 3B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, sabretooth said: I think what Henning meant to say is "losing is awesome, let's keep going"...and "besides, losing and profits are not mutually exclusive" The fact that he thinks riding with Kreidler in 2022 is acceptable seems nuts to me.... If they fail to get one of the three big names, they should go get a Paul DeJong or someone else on trade. Just seems risky and bound to fail to send Kreidler out there on day one. I'll still be pissed either way. But at least it won't be gross negligence. Edited November 30, 2021 by mtutiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Tenacious D said: I hate all of you for putting me in the position to defend Avila, but we were celebrating that he had struck quickly to address C and SP. We really don’t know where negotiations are with many players who are still out there. The frenzy over the last two days makes it seem like we’re being left behind, but that may not be the case. I won’t say “trust in Al” (ever), but we shouldn’t despair either. The Barnhardt pickup is a decent move but it's not anything to celebrate. If we don't get Haase's 2021 production again from him and/or someone else and something to replace Rogers' 2021 production we're worse off. E-Rod is nice, and the quickness of the pickup contributed to some hope that management would get the other players we needed....but E-Rod only really replaces the starts that Boyd and Turnbull already gave us in 2021 that we needed to backfill in 2022. We have not yet improved our team through acquisitions. Tork and Greene can add 2-3 wins apiece, but we could easily see a loss of a couple of wins from Grossman, and another couple from Peralta to cancel most of that out. If we don't add at least a top-level SS, I don't see how we can reasonably project a winning team. And no, Simmons and/or Kriedler ain't gonna cut it. Simmons is 32 years old and hasn't provided elite defense for several years, and is brutally awful as a hitter. He's Andrew Romine at this point, likely a 1-WAR player or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 2 hours ago, 1776 said: The Tigers have just completed a four year tank job. They have been awarded some of the top talent through the draft for the past several years now. They have been dirt cheap in spending on players. This was the year they said they were ready to spend some money to bring in pieces to compliment their draft picks in an effort to get back in the game after a four year hiatus. I believe the organization is indeed anxious about spending real money and making commitments that today’s market requires to be competitive. If signing a starting pitcher at a fair price and trading for a “plug the hole” catcher is Illitch’s idea of spending to be competitive is, it’s going to be a “dark winter.” I have believed, unlike most others, that the Tigers should fully expect to compete for the division top spot this season. AA says he has “the best manager in baseball.” That being the case, spend a few bucks. One or two pieces would be huge. I still don’t have any confidence in Illitch or Avila to move this team forward beyond simply drafting high after tanking year after year. That won’t get the job done without spending some money. This situation is exactly what I expected from this organization. Your move Al. They literally just spent $80 million on a pitcher and $10 million on a catcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 So, are teams finished at this point? There's a lull in the madness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 13 minutes ago, mtutiger said: The fact that he thinks riding with Kreidler in 2022 is acceptable seems nuts to me.... If they fail to get one of the three big names, they should go get a Paul DeJong or someone else on trade. Just seems risky and bound to fail to send Kreidler out there on day one. I'll still be pissed either way. But at least it won't be gross negligence. Kreider is a better option than DeJong, who has trended down for five straight years now and has a large contract. At least krieder has upside. It would be gross negligence to trade for a player who isn't that great just as some knee jerk reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, KL2 said: Kreider is a better option than DeJong, who has trended down for five straight years now and has a large contract. At least krieder has upside. It would be gross negligence to trade for a player who isn't that great just as some knee jerk reaction. If two guaranteed years at $4m/year is too rich for this franchise, then why are we even talking about Trevor Story or Carlos Correa? Edited November 30, 2021 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 12 minutes ago, sabretooth said: Simmons is 32 years old and hasn't provided elite defense for several years, and is brutally awful as a hitter. there is some disagreement between fangraphs and BIS on Simmons '21 D, but no question at all his bat appears to have gotten worse than Zach Short's. There was always the possibility they were going to get shut out on the fab five, the question is whether they can at least still make a good 2nd pitching signing if they can't close on Story or Baez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, mtutiger said: If two guaranteed years at $4m/year is too rich for this franchise, then why are we even talking about Trevor Story or Carlos Correa? Its $6 million and $9 million and then a $3 million buyout, first off. Second, its not a matter of the money amount its about paying that money for a bad player. That makes it a large contract. Paying a ton for little production. That's foolish. Why pay money to a bad player cause you view him as "cheap." Krieder can probably do what DeJong does and Krieder will cost $500K a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: there is some disagreement between fangraphs and BIS on Simmons '21 D, but no question at all his bat appears to have gotten worse than Zach Short's. There was always the possibility they were going to get shut out on the fab five, the question is whether they can at least still make a good 2nd pitching signing if they can't close on Story or Baez. They have got to either get one of the top SS or two pretty good players or I am fearing that 2022 will be a "hey wouldn't 80 wins be GREAT!" kind of season, a real wasted opportunity if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, KL2 said: Its $6 million and $9 million and then a $3 million buyout, first off. Second, its not a matter of the money amount its about paying that money for a bad player. That makes it a large contract. Paying a ton for little production. That's foolish. Why pay money to a bad player cause you view him as "cheap." So rolling Kreidler out there when he hasn't proven himself ready is a-OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 This franchise is technically overpaying their new catcher, but it filled a need with a competent major leaguer. If they don't, at a minimum, do something similar at their position of biggest need coming into the offseason, yeah, we'd all be right to be pissed. As for Ryan Kreidler, let him have a few more months in Toledo before throwing him to the wolves. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mtutiger said: So rolling Kreidler out there when he hasn't proven himself ready is a-OK? Again, as I said earlier, Krieder is certainty better than rolling a player i know is bad out there. At least Krieder has some upside. All he has to do is play OK defense and hit above .200 with a .700 OPS to be better than Dejong. It's not a crazy bar to clear. (and this isn't to say they should ignore the shortstop position, just don't fill it with a guy who was good his rookie year and has been near-junk the rest just because you've heard of him and your afraid how a rookie would preform) Edited November 30, 2021 by KL2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, sabretooth said: They have got to either get one of the top SS or two pretty good players or I am fearing that 2022 will be a "hey wouldn't 80 wins be GREAT!" kind of season, a real wasted opportunity if you ask me. Depends a lot on the kids, particularly the pitchers. But yeah, without a SS, my goal gets lowered from 85 wins/periphery of WC contention to 81-81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Just now, KL2 said: Again, as I said earlier, Krieder is certainty better than rolling a player i know is bad out there. At least Krieder has some upside. All he has to do is play OK defense and hit above .200 with a .700 OPS to be better than Dejong. It's not a crazy bar to clear. Forgive me if I'm not confident that Kreidler has a .700 OPS in his first year in the league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 12 minutes ago, KL2 said: Kreider is a better option than DeJong, who has trended down for five straight years now and has a large contract. At least krieder has upside. It would be gross negligence to trade for a player who isn't that great just as some knee jerk reaction. I don't get being opposed to getting a guy because you think the fan who is talking about it might be guilty of a "knee jerk reaction". First of all, you are guessing as to that person's motive, and secondly, such an acquisition would be made by AA and Chris, and I'm guessing that you wouldn't impugn their motives if they did acquire DeJong. Also, 2/15 is not in any way, shape or form a "large contract" for SS where the production is desperately needed. I am not a DeJong fan....I'm not saying get DeJong. But I am saying that if they whiff on the big SS they need to be willing to spend at least 2/15 for someone who has proven he can hit and field the SS position. I am not begging the question about Kreidler's future, either. He just should not be the answer at this point for 2022 IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 1 minute ago, sabretooth said: I am not a DeJong fan....I'm not saying get DeJong. But I am saying that if they whiff on the big SS they need to be willing to spend at least 2/15 for someone who has proven he can hit and field the SS position. A) I wouldn't be happy with DeJong. I've long said he sucked and you can see it on like page 2 of this thread. B) It is a large contract. WHen you're paying someone 2/15 for production you can get for 500K, it is large. C) Your statement above is false. 100 percent false. He can't hit. The numbers back it up. He hitting has dropped dramatically over five years. It's not just a blip it's a long-standing pattern just like Dontrelle Willis was. You're just going on him based on his name, which is the exact problem I'm talking about. It would be knee jerk to just go trade for DeJong because you're lik s*** I missed on all the free agents let's trade for this bad player because we've all heard of him and I'm fearful that a rookie would be bad at this position. Again, I'm all for upgrading the position, its desperately needed. Paul DeJong isn't an upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 I don't like DeJong but to dismiss him as a "bad player" seems like a stretch. He provided 11 WAR in three seasons age 23-25, that is really, really good. After a COVID season at age 26, he had a down year in 2021. I don't want to see them settle for DeJong over one of the top SS, I'd be pissed if it was DeJong at SS and no other significant acquisitions, but I'd take DeJong over Ryan Kreidler at this point, easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Depends a lot on the kids, particularly the pitchers. But yeah, without a SS, my goal gets lowered from 85 wins/periphery of WC contention to 81-81. And the possible departure of your manager who would probably easily get a job with a contender that is close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Forgive me if I'm not confident that Kreidler has a .700 OPS in his first year in the league He might not. But he costs me 500K and Dejong doesn't. It then begins an ROI question. 6 million for .700 OPS or 500K for let's say a .600 ops and use the other 6.5 million to improve another position to help make up that .100 OPS different or sign a pitcher so you don't need that .100 OPS points nearly as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Just now, mtutiger said: Forgive me if I'm not confident that Kreidler has a .700 OPS in his first year in the league I don't think if they fail to sign Baez or Story they are just going to anoint Kriedler. If there isn't a trade and If he holds his own in ST they probably start the season with SS by committee of Harold Castro, Zach Short and Kriedler with W. Castro at Toledo still trying to become a passable SS. After that there is nothing in the system all the way back to Workman and then the international youngsters. If they don't come up with one this week they'll likely also take the best SS left in the rule 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, sabretooth said: I don't get being opposed to getting a guy because you think the fan who is talking about it might be guilty of a "knee jerk reaction". First of all, you are guessing as to that person's motive, and secondly, such an acquisition would be made by AA and Chris, and I'm guessing that you wouldn't impugn their motives if they did acquire DeJong. Also, 2/15 is not in any way, shape or form a "large contract" for SS where the production is desperately needed. I am not a DeJong fan....I'm not saying get DeJong. But I am saying that if they whiff on the big SS they need to be willing to spend at least 2/15 for someone who has proven he can hit and field the SS position. I am not begging the question about Kreidler's future, either. He just should not be the answer at this point for 2022 IMHO. I'm not even saying get DeJong! They can look on the trade market for someone else too lol. My only point is that this is their biggest position of need coming into this offseason, and handing the keys over to an promising, but unproven prospect (who isn't a Top 10 prospect like Tork/Greene) when the stated goal is to get better and compete is gonna seem like a failure to me. So yeah, I'd like to see them go outside the org if it comes to that. They did it with Barnhart, they should do it in this hypothetical as well Edited November 30, 2021 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, KL2 said: Again, as I said earlier, Krieder is certainly... You know it's Kreidler, not Krieder, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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