2021-22 Tigers Hot Stove League

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, 1776 said:

I’d much prefer a contraction of the number of teams over expansion. 
 

We attended a game in Charlotte this year. It was our first trip to the new park. It was the last NC MLB affiliated minor league park on my list where I had not attended a game. As congested as that area is I couldn’t imagine a MLB park there. I also can’t imagine walking away from as nice a facility as the Knights play in to put one elsewhere in Charlotte. 
I have always opposed having a MLB team in North Carolina. 

That's interesting, why is that?

[Archie]

Contraction is a good idea. Let's start with the White Sox.

 

Right before covid we spent a few nights in Nashville. The Predators had a home game one of those nights and everything in downtown was packed with people in Predator shirts and jerseys.  I assume its like that for every home game.  I know hockey is different than baseball but I think that area could easily support a team. I don't care about NFL so have no idea about the support they have for the football team.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Archie

[1776]

52 minutes ago, casimir said:

That's interesting, why is that?

We have 10 affiliated minor league teams here. If a major league team landed here, Charlotte for instance, we would likely lose a couple of those teams, the Charlotte Knights for sure. I’m not the MLB fan I was years ago but that’s for another discussion. I enjoy minor league games as they are, for the most part, local. We’re one hour from Charlotte. From where we live I can see four different minor league teams within 90 minutes of here. 
Years ago there was a push to place a MLB team in the Triad area (Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point). Thankfully that never occurred. Currently all three of those towns have a professional baseball team, two are affiliated. High Point now has a professional team that plays in the Atlantic League.

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by 1776

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, IdahoBert said:

All joking aside, framing the Mike Ilitch era in relation to the deportment of a “drunken sailor” is an extremely disrespectful and impolitic thing to do, regardless of how accurate this description may be in an off the cuff sort of way. Being off the cuff in this manner about Mr. I seems unprofessional. Al Avila should be capable of a less caustic, less derisive way of framing the Mr. I era. The fact that he didn't speaks volumes, presumably, about the way he and Chris Ilitch view that era. We have all been gnashing our teeth about it for years but most of us aren’t managing an asset of the magnitude of the Detroit Tigers and I would expect a more circumspect manner of phrasing things than a low blow about a “drunken sailor” would imply.

This is pretty much how it landed with me, too.

This really does shine a bright spotlight on a clear deficiency of Al Avila: the inability to extemporaneously articulate his thoughts at the level of effectiveness necessary for the top public-facing official of a highly visible organization.

Either Al meant the "drunken sailor" comment as a dig against a beloved icon whom even people not beholden to him still reverentially refer to as "Mister"; or he blurted out the comment cluelessly, not realizing that it could be perceived in that way. Personally, I believe it's the second option, but really, either way, it reflects poorly on Avila as a communicator and leader.

The one thing this is not is surprising, because it reminds us that Avila is an erstwhile scout who basically Peter Principled his way into the Tigers GM job. The Tigers apparently didn't want to go through the time and expense of searching for a replacement for Dombrowski, instead just handing it to the guy who happens to be next in line at the moment. But as pliable as Avila appears to be, an obvious upside for ownership, the deficiency that leads to this kind of faux pas is just as obvious a downside.

[IdahoBert]

2 hours ago, Shades of Deivi Cruz said:

What leads you to believe it was a dig at the Mike Illitch era? I just took it as not being like the Yankees/Dodgers. My mind didn't go to Mike Illitch / Dombrowski at all.

Because I am interested in Sigmund Freud as well as in your mother Trabek. 

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Shades of Deivi Cruz said:

What leads you to believe it was a dig at the Mike Illitch era? I just took it as not being like the Yankees/Dodgers. My mind didn't go to Mike Illitch / Dombrowski at all.

Likewise. 

People get too wrapped up in appearances. Al Avila's public speaking skills have virtually nothing to do with his ability (or alternately lack thereof) to build a winning baseball team for Detroit. Nothing he said or didn't say or how he said it has any impact on whether we land or fail to land a top shortstop or whether the Tigers #2 pick in the 2022 draft makes the majors. He's definitely a curious type though - watch him when Hinch was speaking, he was usually looking up or away, lots of nervous energy in the hands. Little signs he'd rather have been somewhere else, but who knows? 

[holygoat]

4 hours ago, IdahoBert said:

All joking aside, framing the Mike Ilitch era in relation to the deportment of a “drunken sailor” is an extremely disrespectful and impolitic thing to do, regardless of how accurate this description may be in an off the cuff sort of way. Being off the cuff in this manner about Mr. I seems unprofessional. Al Avila should be capable of a less caustic, less derisive way of framing the Mr. I era. The fact that he didn't speaks volumes, presumably, about the way he and Chris Ilitch view that era. We have all been gnashing our teeth about it for years but most of us aren’t managing an asset of the magnitude of the Detroit Tigers and I would expect a more circumspect manner of phrasing things than a low blow about a “drunken sailor” would imply.

I didn't hear any context that would lead me to believe he was talking about the Mr. I era. His "drunken sailor" comment came across as talking about reckless spending in general to me.

[IdahoBert]

The Mr. I Era is the context; it’s elephant in the living room; it’s the dog barking outside your window that keeps you awake at night that eventually becomes white noise; it’s the sound of footsteps coming from the inaccessible attic of the rental cottage in the woods where you’d hoped to get away from it all. It’s the slip of the tongue where you say what you really mean instead of what you intended to say.

When I first heard the “drunken sailor“ comment I thought “wow that’s bold.” Then I thought “this is not a good choice of words in this situation. He should know better.” 

[IdahoBert]

 

[Tigeraholic1]

Remember when Miggy was going to get some kid with his "Click-Clack" and Davey D. had to bail him out of jail? Good times.

[Shades of Deivi Cruz]

I guess I just disagree that the Mr I era is some cloud hanging over the team, or an elephant in the room or whatever other metaphor you want to use. Now when/if they get back to a place where they seem to be a player or two away from a championship, that might be a different story.

[RatkoVarda]

Ilitch's (sometimes crazy) spending was not the issue; the lack of success of drafting and developing was what brought it crashing down

[Archie]

1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

Ilitch's (sometimes crazy) spending was not the issue; the lack of success of drafting and developing was what brought it crashing down

The hiring of Ausmus had a little something to do with the team crashing down too.

[RandyMarsh]

1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

Ilitch's (sometimes crazy) spending was not the issue; the lack of success of drafting and developing was what brought it crashing down

Exactly, if the spending hurt us at all longterm it was having to forfeit draft picks but if the team was even halfway competent drafting and developing guys they shouldve been able to overcome that. 

 

[oblong]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

This is pretty much how it landed with me, too.

This really does shine a bright spotlight on a clear deficiency of Al Avila: the inability to extemporaneously articulate his thoughts at the level of effectiveness necessary for the top public-facing official of a highly visible organization.

Either Al meant the "drunken sailor" comment as a dig against a beloved icon whom even people not beholden to him still reverentially refer to as "Mister"; or he blurted out the comment cluelessly, not realizing that it could be perceived in that way. Personally, I believe it's the second option, but really, either way, it reflects poorly on Avila as a communicator and leader.

The one thing this is not is surprising, because it reminds us that Avila is an erstwhile scout who basically Peter Principled his way into the Tigers GM job. The Tigers apparently didn't want to go through the time and expense of searching for a replacement for Dombrowski, instead just handing it to the guy who happens to be next in line at the moment. But as pliable as Avila appears to be, an obvious upside for ownership, the deficiency that leads to this kind of faux pas is just as obvious a downside.

I don't see it as a negative thing except for people in the business.  Most fans won't even know he said it.  

Al isn't polished but if he's building a good team in the offices, which it seems now that he's doing.... then so be it.  A good leader listens to his people.  A good leader knows what he's good at and what he's not good at.  From reading things about Dombrowksi it sounds like he was a lone wolf.  Maybe Avila is content to share the spotlight and not get too big for his breeches.  He doesn't need the President/CEO title.  He's content to be the old fashioned general manager that rode the train with the newspaper boys.

[romad1]

the story about Tom Prince being released as Mud Hens manager seems to be looking for a bad guy in the Tigers org that doesn't exist.  Garko gets to pick his minor league managers.  What else do you need to know? 

Tom Prince out as Toledo Mud Hens manager (detroitnews.com)

[romad1]

Just now, romad1 said:

the story about Tom Prince being released as Mud Hens manager seems to be looking for a bad guy in the Tigers org that doesn't exist.  Garko gets to pick his minor league managers.  What else do you need to know? 

Tom Prince out as Toledo Mud Hens manager (detroitnews.com)

Lynn could have titled that story "Tom Prince out as Toledo Mud Hens manager; Comerica Park dimensions blamed."

[Jim Cowan]

Minor league coaching positions don't have much job security.  Details at 11.

[Archie]

4 hours ago, Shades of Deivi Cruz said:

I guess I just disagree that the Mr I era is some cloud hanging over the team, or an elephant in the room or whatever other metaphor you want to use. Now when/if they get back to a place where they seem to be a player or two away from a championship, that might be a different story.

I don't think Mr. I's era has a cloud hanging over them.  They spent as much as they had to and made trades they though best to put a great team on the field.  They made it to the WS but just couldn't seal the deal.  Kind of like the Padres are doing now but can't even make the playoffs.

[chasfh]

5 hours ago, oblong said:

I don't see it as a negative thing except for people in the business.  Most fans won't even know he said it.  

Al isn't polished but if he's building a good team in the offices, which it seems now that he's doing.... then so be it.  A good leader listens to his people.  A good leader knows what he's good at and what he's not good at.  From reading things about Dombrowksi it sounds like he was a lone wolf.  Maybe Avila is content to share the spotlight and not get too big for his breeches.  He doesn't need the President/CEO title.  He's content to be the old fashioned general manager that rode the train with the newspaper boys.

It’s true that Al Avila is building a good team around him, although he didn’t seem to be in much of a hurry to do so until this year. At least I’m living to see that, so better now than never.

I don’t think he ever really grew into the job. I would really like to see him get kicked upstairs.

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It’s true that Al Avila is building a good team around him, although he didn’t seem to be in much of a hurry to do so until this year. At least I’m living to see that, so better now than never.

I don’t think he ever really grew into the job. I would really like to see him get kicked upstairs.

The question I have is "why now?"... is this a long term five year plan or just some sort of philosophical change for Avila that he wasn't practicing earlier on? And while some changes were made pre-AJ, how much influence has AJ had?

Edited October 7, 2021 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

6 hours ago, oblong said:

I don't see it as a negative thing except for people in the business.  Most fans won't even know he said it.  

Al isn't polished but if he's building a good team in the offices, which it seems now that he's doing.... then so be it.  A good leader listens to his people.  A good leader knows what he's good at and what he's not good at.  From reading things about Dombrowksi it sounds like he was a lone wolf.  Maybe Avila is content to share the spotlight and not get too big for his breeches.  He doesn't need the President/CEO title.  He's content to be the old fashioned general manager that rode the train with the newspaper boys.

I just took Avila's comment to mean that he desires to build a roster that is successful and financially sustainable. Which, IMO, is a reflection of the constraints that, as a GM, he has had to live with as the Tigers have been working through past deals. However one feels about his abilities as a GM, no doubt, payroll constraints have probably been a source of frustration and haven't made the job any easier.

I don't think it was meant as a deliberate shot at Mike I or DD or anyone else. Nor is it necessarily an excuse for how bad things got at points in the rebuild. But perhaps a window to a source of frustration for him over the past few years.

[holygoat]

8 hours ago, IdahoBert said:

The Mr. I Era is the context; it’s elephant in the living room; it’s the dog barking outside your window that keeps you awake at night that eventually becomes white noise; it’s the sound of footsteps coming from the inaccessible attic of the rental cottage in the woods where you’d hoped to get away from it all. It’s the slip of the tongue where you say what you really mean instead of what you intended to say.

When I first heard the “drunken sailor“ comment I thought “wow that’s bold.” Then I thought “this is not a good choice of words in this situation. He should know better.” 

Did I miss something? Were they talking about that era when he made the "drunken sailor" comment?

[chasfh]

9 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The question I have is "why now?"... is this a long term five year plan or just some sort of philosophical change for Avila that he wasn't practicing earlier on? And while some changes were made pre-AJ, how much influence has AJ had?

Not like I have any inside knowledge, but adding everything up, I think it’s all AJ.

I also don’t think Avila’s comment was a deliberate shot at Mike or DD, and I basically said that. I think he’s just in over his head. His strength was scouting talent, not maintaining public relations.

[mtutiger]

16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Not like I have any inside knowledge, but adding everything up, I think it’s all AJ.

I also don’t think Avila’s comment was a deliberate shot at Mike or DD, and I basically said that. I think he’s just in over his head. His strength was scouting talent, not maintaining public relations.

I guess I dont get why his comment was bad PR.

As fans, we have talked over and over about the impact past contracts have had on payroll and how it impacts being able to make additions to the ballclub. I dont mind the fact that he's acknowledging that. And that a goal of his going forward is to avoid being put into a similar situation in the future. If anything, I appreciate his candor on that. 

Not making excuses for any bad decisions he has made as GM, but I understand where he is coming from with his comments and didn't have a negative view of them. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by mtutiger