sabretooth Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 54 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: After years of misery any a little success is going to bring optimism so that's part of it, another part is every year there are teams that make the playoffs that nobody expects going in and it usually comes from teams around our win total. Finally its just hope that our young players and prospects can make progression or in the case of Tork/ Greene immediate impacts. Skubal posted a 4+ era, you're hoping he can bring that down to 3.5 or lower like he was expected to be. Manning was over 6, you're hoping that goes to 4ish Mize you're hoping gives you 50 more innings. Rookies with the pedigree of Tork and Greene have made immediate impacts before and that's what you're hoping for here, two rookie of the year caliber seasons. And finally you're hoping we get that premium SS to not only fill our biggest hole but make it a strength. Yes there is a lot of hope there but at the same time I think they are all realistic and that's why so many fans think we could contend for the playoffs next year. Everything you just described gets them to 85 wins....90+ wins and the playoffs would be pretty lucky unless they get more help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: which is one of the big reasons I think "tanking" for several years is a bad strategy. yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, sabretooth said: Everything you just described gets them to 85 wins....90+ wins and the playoffs would be pretty lucky unless they get more help. I know it wouldn't have worked out this year, but if they expand to 14 teams (which I think is inevitable) then 85 wins will get you in most years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, sabretooth said: Everything you just described gets them to 85 wins....90+ wins and the playoffs would be pretty lucky unless they get more help. If it gets them to 85 to 90 wins on paper then I consider that a playoff team cause that's where most playoff teams look on paper prior to the season. Edited October 15, 2021 by RandyMarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 I think they will need everything to go reasonably well and avoid major new injuries to get to 85 wins. They will need a lot of luck to get to 90 wins with just a new SS and SP and the rookies. I simply don't think that's a viable playoff plan, even with an expanded playoff format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I know it wouldn't have worked out this year, but if they expand to 14 teams (which I think is inevitable) then 85 wins will get you in most years. In a weird way, the tanking craze may inflate wins for playoff-caliber teams, by creating more tanking teams for them to feast off of. Tanking sucks, but getting the playoff bar high (90+ wins most of the time) of course would be good for the game. If we have to suffer with idiotic tanking, that might be a silver lining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 I also don't want to see this team rewarded for tanking by sneaking into the playoffs at 84 wins simply based on the contributions of tanking picks like Mize, Tork, and Greene. I will root for these guys, but I don't want to see the Tigers get to the playoffs without building a legit good team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said: ... Yes there is a lot of hope there but at the same time I think they are all realistic and that's why so many fans think we could contend for the playoffs next year. Without an extra OF'er signing which I think is both unnecessary and ________ (I don't want to say it). And with only 1 big name starting rotation guy and any other signings of the 6th/ 7th starter types. I am full on for the best SS and SP (1) and RP signing we can get our hands on however... And I think that (and Hinch/ Fetters/ Tork/ Greene/ Mize-Manning-Skubal) gets us to 90 wins and the playoffs. Edited October 16, 2021 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 I think if they do make the playoffs it will be bc they signed high dollar SS, added another bat and another pitcher. Add that to guys they acquired like Candy, Baddoo, Grossman, Schoop, Soto and Alexander and I think they would be deserving of a spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 13 minutes ago, sabretooth said: In a weird way, the tanking craze may inflate wins for playoff-caliber teams, by creating more tanking teams for them to feast off of. Tanking sucks, but getting the playoff bar high (90+ wins most of the time) of course would be good for the game. If we have to suffer with idiotic tanking, that might be a silver lining. I think fewer teams will tank with more playoff spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 And let me put it this way: What will the Tigers actually do this offseason: A) Sign a big name SS (or the best they can do, even if it means a trade), stopgap catcher, OF'er (or any other big bat), 2 mid-rotation starters (or thereabouts), and a Reliever. Or: B) Sign a big name SS (or the best they can do, even if it means a trade), stopgap catcher, 1 mid-rotation starter (or thereabouts) and a couple 6th/7th starter types for AAA, and a Reliever. There is not a HUGE variance there. Couple differences. But I believe (A) is absolutely incorrect and Avila will NOT sign two MLB starters and an additional Big Bat... and believe that (B) is absolutely correct and no extra Big Bat will be signed (aside from a needed SS and stopgap catcher) and only (1) MLB quality starter will be signed. With a couple more stopgap level starters signed for 5th starter competition but more likely emergency starters stashed in Toledo. The bottom line here is: What will Avila/ Ilitch ACTUALLY DO this offsaeson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 I think Sabres requests will absolutely not happen this winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said: Canha saw the 2nd most pitches per at bat; Grossman was 6th; so those 2 guys would really work the pitch count up Canna is very underrated and probably requires only a 2 year commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 7 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: They could trade for Paul DeJong of the Cardinals. Poor hitter but great glove and was 1.6 war last year. Then load up on pitching. After all the expensive free agents shortstops get signed then circle back and try to trade for good minor league shortstop thats blocked even if they are two years away. Good rookie year, fairly useless all other and I gotta give up something to get him. Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 55 minutes ago, sabretooth said: I also don't want to see this team rewarded for tanking by sneaking into the playoffs at 84 wins simply based on the contributions of tanking picks like Mize, Tork, and Greene. I will root for these guys, but I don't want to see the Tigers get to the playoffs without building a legit good team. I'll root for the guys we got by tnaking but I don't like that they helped a non-tanking team make the playoffs and they aren't a good team. Man kinda all over the place here aren't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 56 minutes ago, sabretooth said: I also don't want to see this team rewarded for tanking by sneaking into the playoffs at 84 wins simply based on the contributions of tanking picks like Mize, Tork, and Greene. I will root for these guys, but I don't want to see the Tigers get to the playoffs without building a legit good team. I don't want to see any team sneak into the playoffs. That is why I hate expanding the playoffs even further. I don't really want the Tigers to aim for 85 wins. I was just saying that I think they could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 Another thing to consider IF we do indeed field an 85ish win team is the possible upgrades we can make at the deadline to make the team even better. Every year contenders get good players to bolster their chances, many times at a low cost(as we all know with some of our trades), perhaps we can be on the right side of something like that next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer1 Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 11 hours ago, Tiger337 said: which is one of the big reasons I think "tanking" for several years is a bad strategy. Is Tampa tanking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gilmore Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 Aside from trades and Tork/Riley, the majority of the 2022 wins improvement we are speculating on would be from FAs. Which without overpayment in dollars or years (and maybe even with those) is never as simple as shopping at the grocery store. What the team tries to do to become more competitive and what they are able to do are two different things. And we will likely not know of some offers or plans that slipped away. short version: you can’t always get what you want i want them to spend. I want excellent players to be acquired. I do not expect them to succeed in signing that level in every perceived area of weakness. And yes, a deadline acquisition could work if we don’t give up too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer1 Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Cruzer1 said: Is Tampa tanking? Basically, I would love for the Tigers to follow their model, they really know how to build on their talent base. They are mostly built through the draft, and get extra picks every year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Dan Gilmore said: Aside from trades and Tork/Riley, the majority of the 2022 wins improvement we are speculating on would be from FAs.... I'm expecting pitching and defensive improvements as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 15 hours ago, RandyMarsh said: Duvall isn't alone in this, scouring the box scores throughout the league I noticed quite a few guys playing center that I wouldn't have expected. My hypothesis to this is that teams are realizing that teams are realizing with more HRs and less gappers its not as important to have a good defender out there. Either the ball is hit over the fence, its hit so hard only the elite can get to it or it's popped up. That and with the advanced batted ball data you can position guys where they don't have to cover as much ground. That's an interesting theory, I hadn't thought of that. Although I do remember half heartedly suggesting an OF of Granderson and Maybin on the corners with Ordonez in CF with the point being Granderson and Maybin could cover from the lines through the gaps and Ordonez wouldn't have much of a slice of defensive responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 15 hours ago, sabretooth said: If they get a quality hitter, I don't think they are going to have any problem finding spaces to put guys. Its not like Miggy will require 162 games at DH and 1B. And Schoop has 2B wide open. And none of the OF in their system right now require full-time play in the place of a good hitter. I am not sure that Canha is the player I want....his power/age is in question, and his glove along with Grossman's arm would weaken OF defense a little too much for my taste. If he had 25+ HRs in him and a .450 SLG/.200 ISO, maybe. Duvall, Pederson are a couple of guys who I think could be signed for Cron/Schoop money and who could add the offense that they need with a decent glove. I guess I hadn't realized Canha is going to be 33 soon. I guess now rethinking it, I wouldn't go more than 2 years on him. Looking at his numbers again, there might be some evidence of the downside of his career, although the abbreviated 2020 is tough to judge. Pederson would make for a really lefty heavy OF. I'm not sure that's ideal. Grossman can play everyday. But then Pederson and at least one of Greene/Baddoo would likely make the Opening Day roster. I suppose if one of the kids is ticketed for Toledo or used as trade bait, Pederson makes sense. I don't know, it seems like a RHB OF makes more sense for a decent balance in the OF. And, yes, this assumes RHBs in Cabrera, Schoop, a C, Torkelson in the lineup. I guess Greene is assumed to be an everyday player. Baddoo showed some capability to go the other way against LHPs, although the consistency certainly isn't there (not surprising, he's a young kid, a rule 5 kid, and he's lost a good amount of development time not just due to COVID). Starling Marte just turned 33, so he kind of goes against what I said about age and decline with Canha. But he's also better than Canha, so there's that. Does an OF of Baddoo/Greene/Marte/Grossman sound like fun? Maybe Marte is the bargain due to age and the SS bacchanal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 Jorge Soler is another potential right handed power bat we could go after. Is bad defensively and can only play the corners but he can hit for a ton of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 33 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: Jorge Soler is another potential right handed power bat we could go after. Is bad defensively and can only play the corners but he can hit for a ton of power. I prefer no longer going after DH only types. I would really like the Tigers to use the DH as a semi off day for the everyday players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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