2021-22 Tigers Hot Stove League

[sabretooth]

I mean, Ray and Semien (and Graveman for the matter) could all turn into pumpkins....Ray with his historical control issues and the fact that he's turning 30 (though he doesn't have a ton of miles of his arm), Semien with his age and the fact that he was a mediocre (but VERY durable) player before 2019, and Graveman, as all relievers, are a twinge away from oblivion.

Nevertheless, with their amazing lineup, they don't need Semien to do much more than to show up every day (which he has been great at doing), field his position well, and hit OK with a chance to repeat some of his recent greatness.

And while Ray like every other pitcher is a bit of a risk, he still had a Cy Young level season and could continue that level of dominance.

And Graveman is a good reliever....FWIW.

The rich use $ to get richer on the field.  That's a great way to build on their successes at building/acquiring very good young talent, especially in a Chicago-sized marketplace.

[Archie]

16 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Good gravy!  The White Sox are becoming the new Monsters of the Midway.  What a rocketship of a roster that would be.

Yeup!  But they're still managed by La Russa.  

[RandyMarsh]

2 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

Someone’s not happy with the Matz signing

 

It makes you wonder why the owner is handling negotiations for a player/contract in the range of 4/50? Like I can maybe see getting involved when it comes to the major guys and you're talking 10 year 200m+ commitments but it just seems odd to be that involved for something relatively insignificant. Not that 50 million dollars is insignificant but that contract seems like something the GM would just handle after getting budget approval from the owner.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by RandyMarsh

[sabretooth]

51 minutes ago, Archie said:

Yeup!  But they're still managed by La Russa.  

True dat....probably worth at least 5 losses.

[sabretooth]

I would like to see them go out and get a value pitcher who is fairly healthy.  With Matz gone, I think they can get Kikuchi or Wacha for around/under $10M/yr for 2 - 4 years, not a lot of $$ and a solid 150 IP per year.

If they want to take a flier on a guy with some arm issues they could go for Duffy, Cobb, or Archer.

Smyly is also a swingman option who could provide some depth in the BP at a cheap price.

[RandyMarsh]

Looking at the White Sox payroll, I didn't realize that they were 4th in the majors(didn't realize the Padres were third either). They're at 156 million now and that doesn't include the 8 million a year they just gave Graveman so that would put them at 164. You got to figure Ray is going to get 20 plus and Semien 25 plus so signing both would put them well over 200 million and up behind only the Yankees. 

I suppose it's possible they do but I think its unlikely especially considering the fact that even if we make a couple more big moves we're still gonna be quite a bit behind them so spending all that extra money on a team thats already heavily favored to win the division seems really unnecessary.  

[Tenacious D]

7 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Looking at the White Sox payroll, I didn't realize that they were 4th in the majors(didn't realize the Padres were third either). They're at 156 million now and that doesn't include the 8 million a year they just gave Graveman so that would put them at 164. You got to figure Ray is going to get 20 plus and Semien 25 plus so signing both would put them well over 200 million and up behind only the Yankees. 

I suppose it's possible they do but I think its unlikely especially considering the fact that even if we make a couple more big moves we're still gonna be quite a bit behind them so spending all that extra money on a team thats already heavily favored to win the division seems really unnecessary.  

Saw some speculation that they may try and move Kimbrel now.  He’ll be paid $16M next season.

[Dan Gilmore]

Won’t they have rising arb costs too, soon if not already?

[RandyMarsh]

3 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

Won’t they have rising arb costs too, soon if not already?

I know they signed Robert and Eloy to long term extensions but I have no idea how the contract is structured. I know the one they gave Moncada goes up by like 7 million each year so if Robert and Eloy's is structured the same they will go up quite a bit each year. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by RandyMarsh

[Archie]

15 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Saw some speculation that they may try and move Kimbrel now.  He’ll be paid $16M next season.

Seems like a lot of money for a one inning pitcher and he isn't even their closer.

[SoCalTiger]

15 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Tender deadline moved up 2 days to avoid lockout, so will get a little more clarity on the roster then; assuming one of Garneau/Greiner will not be tendered, maybe both will not; Boyd is only big decision.

Turnbull, Candy, Fulmer, Cisnero - yes

HCastro, Jimenez, Reyes - sure why not

Hutchinson, Niko, Krol - already gone

I think Boyd is toast and they will keep all of the above "why nots"  in the recycle bin to take out another day. 

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

Saw some speculation that they may try and move Kimbrel now.  He’ll be paid $16M next season.

Will anyone take him at that price?

[Tenacious D]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Will anyone take him at that price?

They might need to throw some money ($4-6M) in a deal.  He wasn’t great for them last year, so his market might be soft.

[1984Echoes]

11 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Four years seems long for Matz

I already stated this before he signed...

I think it's too much years and money for this pitcher...

I ain't/ wasn't interested and definitely not on these terms.

I think there is better, for less money/ years.

[1984Echoes]

15 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

White Sox signed Kendall Graveman giving them another weapon out of their bullpen and are reportedly in the mix for Robbie Ray and Marcus Semien...

Ray with the White Sox would really, really suck.

Semien with them doesn't bother me quite as much...

But I would definitely hate Ray being on their staff.

[Motor City Sonics]

White Sox bloated payroll for 2022, 2023 and I think if they don't win it all by then, they'll start breaking up the team.   Tigers probably won't peak until 2024, at the earliest.   

 

Everything is fine.  

[SoCalTiger]

It seems pitching is still in high demand for starters and inflated for relievers. Not surprising. 
 

And F the white Sox 

[casimir]

Rodriguez vs Matz, 2021:

Rodriguez vs Matz, career:

At first thought, I liked the Rodriguez deal over Matz.  On second thought, I'm not so sure.  Rodriguez is the younger guy, so the Tigers have a better chance at prime performance.  Matz is locked in for 4 seasons, while Rodriguez could be out after 2 (although the Tigers have an inside track at keeping him after 2).

Maybe 4/$44M isn't as bad for Matz as I originally thought, but Rodriguez (5/$77M) is still the better pitcher.  Maybe the contracts are pretty comparable to one another when taking into consideration the actual performance behind those pitchers?

[Motor City Sonics]

9 minutes ago, casimir said:

Rodriguez vs Matz, 2021:

Rodriguez vs Matz, career:

At first thought, I liked the Rodriguez deal over Matz.  On second thought, I'm not so sure.  Rodriguez is the younger guy, so the Tigers have a better chance at prime performance.  Matz is locked in for 4 seasons, while Rodriguez could be out after 2 (although the Tigers have an inside track at keeping him after 2).

Maybe 4/$44M isn't as bad for Matz as I originally thought, but Rodriguez (5/$77M) is still the better pitcher.  Maybe the contracts are pretty comparable to one another when taking into consideration the actual performance behind those pitchers?

Baseball Reference is just so damned awesome, isn't it? 

 

[casimir]

3 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Baseball Reference is just so damned awesome, isn't it? 

 

I'm traveling with the family, in a hotel suite.  I'm on my work computer waiting for some tasks in a queue to be completed before I check over some numerals this morning for fiscal month end close.  I was up early because I am used to that during the week.  It seemed like MTF & bbref were better options than porn given all of the factors.

[mtutiger]

36 minutes ago, casimir said:

Rodriguez vs Matz, 2021:

Rodriguez vs Matz, career:

At first thought, I liked the Rodriguez deal over Matz.  On second thought, I'm not so sure.  Rodriguez is the younger guy, so the Tigers have a better chance at prime performance.  Matz is locked in for 4 seasons, while Rodriguez could be out after 2 (although the Tigers have an inside track at keeping him after 2).

Maybe 4/$44M isn't as bad for Matz as I originally thought, but Rodriguez (5/$77M) is still the better pitcher.  Maybe the contracts are pretty comparable to one another when taking into consideration the actual performance behind those pitchers?

Its the years that makes the Matz deal a non-starter imo. Just not sure he's done enough to earn four years at age 30.

[Archie]

48 minutes ago, casimir said:

I'm traveling with the family, in a hotel suite.  I'm on my work computer waiting for some tasks in a queue to be completed before I check over some numerals this morning for fiscal month end close.  I was up early because I am used to that during the week.  It seemed like MTF & bbref were better options than porn given all of the factors.

That was probably a good choice seeing its a work computer and all.🙂

[buddha]

20 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Will anyone take him at that price?

the sox have openly stated theyre trying to trade kimbrell.

the "narrative" is that kimbrell cant pitch any inning but the ninth (because he was so terrible with the white sox in the 8th).  however, that sort of glosses over the fact that he was terrible in 2019 and 2020 working in the 9th, and had half a great season in 2021 with the cubs in the same role.

so i could see a team buy into that narrative and take kimbrell to be their closer.  someone will get hurt and some team will need an "established closer".

[1984Echoes]

3 hours ago, casimir said:

Rodriguez vs Matz, 2021:

Rodriguez vs Matz, career:

At first thought, I liked the Rodriguez deal over Matz.  On second thought, I'm not so sure.  Rodriguez is the younger guy, so the Tigers have a better chance at prime performance.  Matz is locked in for 4 seasons, while Rodriguez could be out after 2 (although the Tigers have an inside track at keeping him after 2).

Maybe 4/$44M isn't as bad for Matz as I originally thought, but Rodriguez (5/$77M) is still the better pitcher.  Maybe the contracts are pretty comparable to one another when taking into consideration the actual performance behind those pitchers?

Does that take park effects into account?

Because Eduardo played his entire career at Fenway. He's going to get a good boost by switching over to Comerica.

Matz played his career at NY Mets, and Toronto...

Eduardo: avg 2.6 WAR per year, and 1.29 WHIP average prior to last year. Last year he was a bit worse (1st year he allowed more hits than innings, 1.39 WHIP instead of his 1.29-ish...). And 29 versus 31 (to start next season). He's not an ace. He's an innings eating workhorse that slots in at #3 or 4 in a rotation and provides huge stability and above average pitching.

I think Matz is a more than a minor drop-off from that and, at 31 to start next year, I'll take the Eduardo deals hands-over-fist over this Matz deal.

 

[Useful Idiot]

On 11/23/2021 at 9:19 PM, JackPine said:

That is also my memory that stands out most about the orioles

Funny, but Brad Ausmus being our manager the memory that stands out most for me about the 2014 playoffs