2021-22 Tigers Hot Stove League

[sabretooth]

Getting Correa would be far more valuable than any so-so pitcher we might get.  

We are not getting Correa in any case.

[Dan Gilmore]

Goalpost move noted. Nobody said anything about a so-so pitcher.

[chasfh]

9 hours ago, casimir said:

So, now this comment about Ilitch kind of strikes me.  Can we correlate this offseason to one of the Dombrowski offseasons?  It seems unlikely.  But this massive improvement in record that we saw in 2021, does it compare a bit to 2004?

I guess ultimately what I am trying to get to is will we find that, after the Tigers have gotten through the reboot, will we find that Al & Chris are better at building cohesive teams than Dave & Mike were?

Al and Chris have been working together in their current capacity since 2017. All through that year, 2018, 2019 and 2020, they made several dumb trades, iffy free agent signings, and ground this franchise to a 198-345 record, a win percentage of .365.

All of a sudden, in 2021, they've make solid signings, a couple decent trades, and improved their record to almost .500.

I wonder what was different about 2021? Hmmm ...

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, Dan Gilmore said:

Goalpost move noted. Nobody said anything about a so-so pitcher.

Nobody said we were going to get anything better, either.

[sabretooth]

37 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Al and Chris have been working together in their current capacity since 2017. All through that year, 2018, 2019 and 2020, they made several dumb trades, iffy free agent signings, and ground this franchise to a 198-345 record, a win percentage of .365.

All of a sudden, in 2021, they've make solid signings, a couple decent trades, and improved their record to almost .500.

I wonder what was different about 2021? Hmmm ...

Yes, I agree.   I have said for many years that you cannot evaluate the GM independent of the owner and the manager because the 3 are intertwined in so many ways.  AJ and Leyland both made positive contributions to the organization's approach to roster management, player advancement, and development.  Its still the GMs show, but the right Manager is a huge difference maker.

[chasfh]

Just now, sabretooth said:

Yes, I agree.   I have said for many years that you cannot evaluate the GM independent of the owner and the manager because the 3 are intertwined in so many ways.  AJ and Leyland both made positive contributions to the organization's approach to roster management, player advancement, and development.  Its still the GMs show, but the right Manager is a huge difference maker.

How did Leyland contribute to roster management, player advancement, and development? Honest question.

[Dan Gilmore]

Well if you wanted to compare highly rated, very expensive FAs, then something comparing Correa/Baez/?Alexender?maybe Wentz versus Baez/Schoop/Rodòn would make sense to me. Otherwise it’s so apples to oranges that it doesn’t. You might even have enough money left over compared to Correa that you could sign a so-so starter too. 😎

[sabretooth]

28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

How did Leyland contribute to roster management, player advancement, and development? Honest question.

He was quoted in numerous articles at the time as saying that he basically determined or heavily influenced when Zoom and JV were going to be brought up, Zooms bullpen conversion, and the handling of both.  He made similar but less distinct comments about other players over the years, including his personal observations and how he and DD had collaborated on various roster, player development and advancement matters, and such.  It was clear that DD sought and valued Leylands opinion, and that Leyland appreciated that level of confidence and teamwork.

[sabretooth]

30 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

Well if you wanted to compare highly rated, very expensive FAs, then something comparing Correa/Baez/?Alexender?maybe Wentz versus Baez/Schoop/Rodòn would make sense to me. Otherwise it’s so apples to oranges that it doesn’t. You might even have enough money left over compared to Correa that you could sign a so-so starter too. 😎

I would LOVE for you to be right 😀👍

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Dan Gilmore said:

Well if you wanted to compare highly rated, very expensive FAs, then something comparing Correa/Baez/?Alexender?maybe Wentz versus Baez/Schoop/Rodòn would make sense to me. Otherwise it’s so apples to oranges that it doesn’t. You might even have enough money left over compared to Correa that you could sign a so-so starter too. 😎

I'd be very concerned about Rodon with his injury hitory and ending the season with a sore arm.  

[buddha]

10 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

The Athletic has a round up remaining FAs; with Correa topping the list obviously. This would simply be too good to be true:

The best fit for Correa may still be Detroit, even after the Tigers splurged $140 million on Javier Báez. Báez can play second base, as he did next to his friend, Francisco Lindor, during the second half in New York. The presence of Jonathan Schoop should not preclude Detroit owner Chris Ilitch from taking a page out of the recent playbook authorized by Rangers owner Ray Davis. Texas remade its middle infield by dropping $500 million on Seager and Marcus Semien. Like Davis, Ilitch can afford the expenditure.

yes please

[Jim Cowan]

No thanks, he wants at least 10 years and I don't even want him 6 years from now.

[1776]

19 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I'd be very concerned about Rodon with his injury hitory and ending the season with a sore arm.  

As frequently as his name comes up in conversations pertaining to signings, I don’t believe his issues are as understood as you’d think they would be with all the media attention these guys get. There is no way I’d sign him at this point. 

[Dan Gilmore]

I don’t advocate signing Rodòn, he was just an example of a high WAR starter in the fantasy related to signing Correa. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, 1776 said:

As frequently as his name comes up in conversations pertaining to signings, I don’t believe his issues are as understood as you’d think they would be with all the media attention these guys get. There is no way I’d sign him at this point. 

He's very unusual case - a guy who came back from Tommy John throwing over 2 mph harder with better command than he ever had in his career -- and ends up with a sore arm after 100 innings. Is the new velo more than the rest of his arm can take - or did he just overdue it a little coming back from the long lay off?  High risk, high reward player.

[IdahoBert]

On 12/2/2021 at 7:41 AM, chasfh said:

Claiming lack of availability is reasonable in the era of COVID, since it does take manual labor to construct the balls. 

On the other hand, Baseball loves them some homers.

That’s why Al Gore invented steroids.

[gehringer_2]

23 hours ago, sabretooth said:

He was quoted in numerous articles at the time as saying that he basically determined or heavily influenced when Zoom and JV were going to be brought up, Zooms bullpen conversion, and the handling of both.  He made similar but less distinct comments about other players over the years, including his personal observations and how he and DD had collaborated on various roster, player development and advancement matters, and such.  It was clear that DD sought and valued Leylands opinion, and that Leyland appreciated that level of confidence and teamwork.

only problem was that JL's advice was filtered through a pre-analytics mindset about what made a productive position player and he didn't know jack about pitch physics. But he was a good leader, and he was willing to protect young arms when that was needed.

Edited December 6, 2021 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

On 12/4/2021 at 6:23 PM, sabretooth said:

He was quoted in numerous articles at the time as saying that he basically determined or heavily influenced when Zoom and JV were going to be brought up, Zooms bullpen conversion, and the handling of both.  He made similar but less distinct comments about other players over the years, including his personal observations and how he and DD had collaborated on various roster, player development and advancement matters, and such.  It was clear that DD sought and valued Leylands opinion, and that Leyland appreciated that level of confidence and teamwork.

I guess I can take Jim’s word for all that. I thought maybe you were suggesting that Leyland had made positive contributions to the organization's current approach to roster management, player advancement, and development.

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I guess I can take Jim’s word for all that. I thought maybe you were suggesting that Leyland had made positive contributions to the organization's current approach to roster management, player advancement, and development.

Oh, I see....not to my knowledge.

[sabretooth]

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

only problem was that JL's advice was filtered through a pre-analytics mindset about what made a productive position player and he didn't know jack about pitch physics. But he was a good leader, and he was willing to protect young arms when that was needed.

Yeah, whether his advice was oriented towards the most effective approach, all things considered, I dont know.... I just mean that he is an example of a manager who was highly respected by the front office and who had a collaborative relationship with the front office and whose input had an impact on overall roster and player development…. and I think that's the way it should be.  The ideal currently is to have a Manager who is plugged into advanced analytics (ie, not Gardenhire).

[buddha]

rodon was below average until he suddenly starting throwing harder and faster.  but when he did that, he became injured all the time. 

im not sure his success is sustainable.  in order to be good, he has to throw at maximum effort.  bit when he throws at maximum effort, he gets hurt quickly.

i wouldnt touch him on a big deal.  a deal for short money?   hmmmm....that i would think about.

[Tenacious D]

agree with your concerns, and think we should just pass on Rodon.  Plus, he's likely going to the Dodgers or Yankees, or another team with no regard for the luxury tax, or any other similar implications that will be placed on teams coming out of this CBA.

I'm good with another reclamation project to complete with Tyler Alexander and Joey Wentz.  Or go and get Verlander if he truly didn't sign his contract.

 

[Timmitch55]

5 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

agree with your concerns, and think we should just pass on Rodon.  Plus, he's likely going to the Dodgers or Yankees, or another team with no regard for the luxury tax, or any other similar implications that will be placed on teams coming out of this CBA.

I'm good with another reclamation project to complete with Tyler Alexander and Joey Wentz.  Or go and get Verlander if he truly didn't sign his contract.

 

I'm hoping the Tigers do just that. Maybe a little Christmas  gift on Christmas  day.

[Tigeraholic1]

 

[Cruzer1]

I don't remember where I heard this, but I heard the Tigers offered Correa a contract in the range of 8 years for 275 million, and Correa turned it down. After that, they turned to Baez as their backup plan.