2023 NBA Trade Deadline

[buddha]

lol.

[1984Echoes]

49 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Yep.  GS will have to pay something like $110m in luxury tax over the next two years if they keep Wiseman.   I think they will they find a way to let this deal go through  

All they need to do is keep the picks that they sent for Payton, and Kevin Knox. 

That seems fair...

[RandyMarsh]

If the trade doesn't go through and we don't end up with Wiseman then you just know he's going to break out and fulfill his pre-draft potential.

[Deleterious]

It doesn't paint Portland in a very good light.

Pushing a player to play through an injury is flat out wrong.  Then you hide it from the trade partner, why?  Because they are in the luxury tax and Portland knows GSW will probably just bite the bullet and take GPII anyway.  Shady.

https://theathletic.com/4180625/2023/02/10/gary-payton-physical-trade/

Quote

Payton, according to sources, had been playing through pain in Portland. Sources added that the Blazers training staff had been pushing him to gut through it, giving him Toradol shots. This had not been relayed to the Warriors during the negotiation process.

 

[buddha]

we should know tonight whether we get to see the pistons run out smith/monroe/drummond 2.0.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

we should know tonight whether we get to see the pistons run out smith/monroe/drummond 2.0.

If you want to talk about being immobile...

Those 3 were immobile. 

In comparison to Stew's/ Duren's/ Wiseman's mobility... there is no comparison.

We'll see it on the court if we get Wiseman...

And... no guarantees... but I believe/ am hoping we'll be seeing in a year or so Wallace/ Wallace 2.0, not Smith/ Monroe/ Drummond 2.0.

[buddha]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

If you want to talk about being immobile...

Those 3 were immobile. 

In comparison to Stew's/ Duren's/ Wiseman's mobility... there is no comparison.

We'll see it on the court if we get Wiseman...

And... no guarantees... but I believe/ am hoping we'll be seeing in a year or so Wallace/ Wallace 2.0, not Smith/ Monroe/ Drummond 2.0.

i bet at the time of smith/monroe/drummond you were very excited about that too.  😉

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

i bet at the time of smith/monroe/drummond you were very excited about that too.  😉

Just for a moment...

But Smith quickly went downhill...

Monroe looked more immobile by the minute...

And Dre obviously could not play together with Monroe... 

Although it took me a few years with Dre to fully buy into the "his ten-cent head will never allow him to reach full potential...". His ten-cent head was indeed a disappointment.

[1984Echoes]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

i bet at the time of smith/monroe/drummond you were very excited about that too.  😉

PS: If there's excitement on my part surrounding Stew/ Duren/ Wiseman, and there sort of is...

It's ALL based on potential. Because the current on-floor product is WAY far down below what would be acceptable if the team gets good enough to chase playoffs/ pennants...

So I'm stuck with potential and patience.

Two very dirty "P" words.

[Deleterious]

Only excited because Wiseman is something new.  I am sure I will lose interest after 2 or 3 games and go back to watching other teams.

[Deleterious]

 

[Deleterious]

 

[buddha]

yes!  another center!

i'm pumped.

[Deleterious]

Are you going to party like its 1999?  Because the Pistons are building a roster like its 1999.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Deleterious said:

Are you going to party like its 1999?  Because the Pistons are building a roster like its 1999.

yes, but the pistons made the playoffs in 1999, so maybe not.

who could forget the christian laetner/loy vaught pistons?

[Betrayer]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:36 AM, casimir said:

Where's Betrayer?  Did he get traded yesterday?

I was on vacation, but I've definitely got some thoughts on this whole thing...

Bey:
I'm fine with the Pistons moving him. I've been getting more and more frustrated with his play lately as many of you have seen me comment. Selfish, inefficient, a shooter who can't shoot, a wing who can't defend, and his numbers have regressed every year.

As a rookie we all thought he'd be a 3 and D role player that would develop into a Jae Crowder or (hopefully) Middleton type. Turns out he wanted to be way more than that to the detriment of all those around him. Something I like to call "Drummond Disease" or "DD" for short, but better know as a lack of self awareness.

I said previously that this team was going to need to move players to make space for draft picks and free agents that will help them compete because player development alone wasn't going to cut it. Cade/Ivey/Duren are where we're investing our future, and that only leaves the wing where they can make improvements. So, this was inevitable.

Wiseman:
I'm curious to see Wiseman in a pick and roll system. He has a lot of tools, but he's played less minutes than Duren so far in his career, 1/3rd of the minutes that Killian has played, and is just 21 (to Saddiq's 23). There's still room for growth and he should get plenty of opportunity here.

I also don't agree with those saying we don't need a Center. Noel obviously isn't getting played and may be bought out. Bagley is (always) hurt. So, all you have is Stew backing up Duren. Have you been watching the Stew at Center travesty this season? He's too small on defense and has bad hands in the paint on offense. Your only hope is that he figures that 3 point shot out and can become a bench PF and situational Center like Grant Williams. That Cleveland game was probably the straw that broke the camel's back for Weaver, and I can't blame him for that - we looked like a middle school team playing against a college team. We absolutely need a backup Center and if they can get that out of Wiseman, then I'm happy with the return.

At the end of the day, you're swapping a bench Wing for a bench Center. Let's not inflate the value of a wing who can't play defense or shoot and couldn't keep his starting spot on one of the worst teams in the league. All I need Wiseman to become is a good bench Center and he'll have more value - or at least less negative value - than Bey at the wing.

Weaver:
However, I do agree that Weaver's seat is getting much warmer with the fans. The vision and identity of the team he's building is questionable at best. I think fans are ok with being bad during a rebuild, but we're all struggling to see what he's building towards. He says he wants defense but he's collected a team full of bad defenders.

This is going to be a big offseason for him, especially if he doesn't get bailed out by landing the #1 or #2 pick. And nobody wants to see him spend that 50M+ on the equivalent of Charlie V, Ben Gordon, or Josh Smith in this bad free agent market. It's definitely going to be interesting.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Betrayer

[casimir]

3 hours ago, Betrayer said:

I was on vacation

Who approved this?  Misery loves company.  You can’t just duck out on the rest of us like that in the middle of this rotten season.

[RatkoVarda]

I saw this on Twitter and had to double check. Duren (1258) has played more NBA minutes than Wiseman (1098). That's crazy.

[Betrayer]

1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

I saw this on Twitter and had to double check. Duren (1258) has played more NBA minutes than Wiseman (1098). That's crazy.

You also saw it in my post two spots up from your post  😄

Quote

I'm curious to see Wiseman in a pick and roll system. He has a lot of tools, but he's played less minutes than Duren so far in his career, 1/3rd of the minutes that Killian has played, and is just 21 (to Saddiq's 23). There's still room for growth and he should get plenty of opportunity here.

 

[Deleterious]

Betrayer is the Rodney Dangerfield of the forum.

[1984Echoes]

I'm going to take another swipe against the "Weaver is or should be on the hot seat" takes that are floating around here... I'm going to approach this differently though because I want to make a specific comment:

I believe Weaver came here to:

1) Dump all the crappy unproductive vets and the crappy contracts that constituted our team pre-Weaver.

Status: I think he pretty much did that in one fell swoop. Accomplished and completed.

2) Accumulate talent. We were so deficient in talent that he pretty much had to build this area from zero. I believe we've had 100% turnover. We had no "good" vets to trade for lots of extra 1sts or for young talent, at a trade deadline or offseason. So he had to start with nothing, had nothing to trade to kick-start a talent rebuild, and in fact had negative value vets which sort of put him behind the eight-ball. Does anyone disagree with this.

Status: I think we are still in this phase. I think others are disagreeing and believe we are now in a "create playoff team" phase, and are impatient that we are not. So...

3) Build a playoff-quality team.

Status: Is this where we are at? Or supposed to be at, next year?

 

This is where I take disagreement. I believe we are still in talent accumulation phase #2, not "we better make the playoffs this year" phase #3.

It's why 23 y.o. good-but-not-great Bey gets traded for a huge-potential-but-has-played-close-to-nil-in-3-years lottery ticket swing in Wiseman.

Other reasons: Not every prospect makes it. The expectation that we MUST be in the playoffs because Weaver must win on EVERY prospect he drafts is unrealistic. Period. It seems like perfection is demanded of Weaver and, whether he builds or really damn fine playoff team or not... I can assure you he won't be perfect in either case. 

Put another way... it seems like what I am seeing posted is "we had 3 1sts in 2020 so we MUST be a playoff level team." Really? What is the success/ failure rate of the 16th and 19th picks in the NBA 1st round? Isn't it pretty hit or miss? Correct me if I'm wrong. So, Weaver picked 3 useful players, no stars, in his first draft. In 2021 he selects Cade Cunningham (who misses almost all of this year due to injury, still 21). In 2022 he selects Jaden Ivey (20 y.o. at the time) and Jalen Duren (18 y.o. at the time). And we have another high draft pick this year.

So now we're a playoff-level team, per your guys' expectations?

I'm sorry, but... no. These are kids. We are still in the talent accumulation phase. I think everyone is completely ignoring how young this team is. If we make the playoffs in 2024 because all these kids just take off... great.

But if not... I am not putting playoff expectations on these kids until they get past their learning curves.

I mean, you guys go ahead and do whatever you want, which you will do anyways... but I think your expectations are just a bit too premature. And demanding that Weaver gets fired next year if he doesn't make the playoffs still strikes me as beyond ridiculous.

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by 1984Echoes

[Betrayer]

I completely agree that we're in the Talent Accumulation phase. In fact, I think the idea of trying to win before you land a superstar or two All-Stars to build around is setting yourself up for years of mediocrity.

Which is why I've said that his seat is getting warm with "the fans", but I don't believe it's anywhere near warm with the owner. In fact, he just got an extension.

Personally, the issue I'm having is: They've said over and over that they want a defensive minded team that can compete for a playoff spot next year and I can't see the vision for the team he's building or how he expects to accomplish that objective with it.

Overall, I still think he's been a net positive because I like his aggression in the teardown and some of the gambles he's made - which you have to do if you want to find some diamonds in the rough in Detroit. After all, we aren't attracting guys that are already All-Stars in Detroit.

But at the same time I'm not seeing how what he's doing translates to what he and the organization are saying they're trying to do. I also worry that the "playoff" talk is being pushed down from Gores, which could spell disaster with all the money we have this offseason.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Betrayer

[Shinzaki]

Re Weaver...the moves he made early on can now be judged a little more clearly.  He drafted Killian instead of Haliburton, spent capital to draft Stewart and Bey.  Killian has picked it up a bit, but still isn't at the level he needs to be, Stewart looks to be best suited a s aback up at PF and C and Bey was dealt for a project big.

For a guy with a rep as a draft genius...that's a pretty poor track record

[Betrayer]

17 minutes ago, Shinzaki said:

Re Weaver...the moves he made early on can now be judged a little more clearly.  He drafted Killian instead of Haliburton, spent capital to draft Stewart and Bey.  Killian has picked it up a bit, but still isn't at the level he needs to be, Stewart looks to be best suited a s aback up at PF and C and Bey was dealt for a project big.

For a guy with a rep as a draft genius...that's a pretty poor track record

Actually, it's not as bad as you'd think. It's easy to look in hindsight and find a guy or two picked later that broke out. That happens in every draft. But we're talking about picks 7, 16, and 19.

Based upon data from 82games.com, here's what you can expect from those picks...
(https://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm)

Pick 7: 30% Star, 40% Solid, 25% Role Player, 5% Deep Bench
--Killian looks like he'll fall in as a Role Player, but some believe he still has a chance to be a Solid NBA backup. Either way, I'd call it below average for this draft spot. Of all his draft picks, this was the lowest return vs average.

Pick 16: 5% Star, 25% Solid, 30% Role Player, 25% Deep Bench, 15% Bust
--Stewart is looking like he'll be in the role player section, which is slightly above average for this draft spot.

Pick 19: 5% Star, 15% Solid, 20% Role Player, 50% Deep Bench, 10% Bust
--Bey is currently in the Role Player section, which is really good for this draft spot. Although he could move into the Solid spot with the right coaching/system. Either way, this is well above average for that spot in the draft where you have a 60% chance to get a deep bench or bust.

So, Weaver didn't hit it out of the park with these picks, but overall he was probably slightly above average or at least on the averages when you add it all up. When you factor in that everyone knew this was a historically weak draft, he did fine. Not great, but fine.

Then, in 2021 Cade was clearly the pick that everyone was taking at #1, so nothing to talk about there. I guess you could credit him for not overthinking it.

In 2022, he took Ivey and got one of the steals of the draft in Duren at pick 13. Obviously we can't fully judge these picks for a couple more years, but it's looking pretty good so far.

Overall, I think his drafting has been very good. My concerns are actually more around roster composition (identity/vision) and some of his asset management (such as the Plumlee debacle).

[buddha]

43 minutes ago, Betrayer said:

Actually, it's not as bad as you'd think. It's easy to look in hindsight and find a guy or two picked later that broke out. That happens in every draft. But we're talking about picks 7, 16, and 19.

Based upon data from 82games.com, here's what you can expect from those picks...
(https://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm)

Pick 7: 30% Star, 40% Solid, 25% Role Player, 5% Deep Bench
--Killian looks like he'll fall in as a Role Player, but some believe he still has a chance to be a Solid NBA backup. Either way, I'd call it below average for this draft spot. Of all his draft picks, this was the lowest return vs average.

Pick 16: 5% Star, 25% Solid, 30% Role Player, 25% Deep Bench, 15% Bust
--Stewart is looking like he'll be in the role player section, which is slightly above average for this draft spot.

Pick 19: 5% Star, 15% Solid, 20% Role Player, 50% Deep Bench, 10% Bust
--Bey is currently in the Role Player section, which is really good for this draft spot. Although he could move into the Solid spot with the right coaching/system. Either way, this is well above average for that spot in the draft where you have a 60% chance to get a deep bench or bust.

So, Weaver didn't hit it out of the park with these picks, but overall he was probably slightly above average or at least on the averages when you add it all up. When you factor in that everyone knew this was a historically weak draft, he did fine. Not great, but fine.

Then, in 2021 Cade was clearly the pick that everyone was taking at #1, so nothing to talk about there. I guess you could credit him for not overthinking it.

In 2022, he took Ivey and got one of the steals of the draft in Duren at pick 13. Obviously we can't fully judge these picks for a couple more years, but it's looking pretty good so far.

Overall, I think his drafting has been very good. My concerns are actually more around roster composition (identity/vision) and some of his asset management (such as the Plumlee debacle).

i dont think you can separate stewart and bey from the assets you gave up to get them.

im not saying you said that.  like you said, i too question his asset management and roster construction more than anything.  you didnt need to trade those assets for bey/stewart.  what did bey/stewart bring the franchise in the long run?  wiseman and a backup big project on a team full of backup bigs.  and theyre not cheap anymore.

we'll see.  wiseman has projectability at the very least.  hopefully he turns out to be the rim running skilled big we need.